GFF Podcast

2024 Year-End Special: Tokenisation, DLT, AI and fintech innovation in 2025

• Clearstream • Season 4 • Episode 6

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Join us for our special year-end episode, where we reflect on a year of fintech innovation in securities lending and collateral management. We'll be making predictions about 2025 with regular hosts, Andrew Keith Walker and Christian Rossler, plus our special guest Barnaby Nelson – fintech innovation expert and CEO of the Value Exchange. Additionally, our guest co-host, Fabrice Tomenko, will join us for a lively chat about tokenisation, DLT, CBDC, blockchain, AI, and the tensions between regulation, innovation and compliance in the current, rapidly evolving securities lending and money markets. Will it be a happy new year? Join us at the GFF Summit in January to find out.


Speaker 1:

and welcome back to the gff podcast for this very special december edition. Yes, it's december already. Where has the year gone? Christmas is fast approaching, of course, if that's your tradition. If not, hopefully a holiday is fast approaching, um, if you get the chance. But if you work in the fast-moving of securities lending, there is a chance that you'll be eating a sandwich at your desk on Christmas Day. So hopefully your line manager will bring around a nice little glass of champers for you and you'll have us thinking of you as we tuck into the turkey and pass out In the meantime, one man who won't be passing out because his body is a temple and his superhuman levels of fitness and excellent diet. It's my co-host, of course, mr Christian Rossler. Christian, welcome back to the show, hello.

Speaker 2:

Andrew Happy to be back.

Speaker 1:

And so, christian, we have a very special show lined up, because we're not just looking at what's coming up in 2025. Of course, the GFF Summit is fast approaching it's about a month away now and we'll have a little word about that right at the end of the show but 2025, we're seeing a lot of change, and this is a favorite episode of mine because we're going to be talking all about technology, innovation and what is possible and what's practical, and that's a really key aspect of the innovation story. So, christian, tell us a bit more about our guest today.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So I'm happy to, and I'm very pleased that we have again Fabrice Tomenko on the show, who's the head of digital trust at Clearstream International. So Fabrice is somebody who has been on our show for a couple of times and he usually brings us topics that are really interesting and exciting. So today we're going to have a special guest from Canada on the show, so I'm very happy to welcome Barnaby Nelson. So welcome Barnaby.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, christian, lovely to be here. Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, barnaby, it's great to have you Now those of you listening to the show. If you've done anything at all in the world of Asian markets and securities post-trade custody, you probably already know Barnaby. He was, after all, head of business development BNP Paribas for six years there in Asia. He was also the MD and head of securities of Standard Chartered in Greater China and North Asia. He was chairman of the Standard Chartered Trust as well, before becoming the CEO of the Value Exchange, which is an innovation hub and exchange. He's going to tell us all about that in a second. He's also a founder member and on the board of the Security Services Advisory Group in Canada.

Speaker 1:

So I'll stop it there now, barmaby, because you're just showing off. I was going to say that is a great CV, very impressive. It's almost as impressive as Fabrice's, who obviously is CEO at Clearstream International. Prior to that, he was head of product development at banking funding and financing at Clearstream, which is why I have to say how cool he is, because, of course, the BFF turned into the GFF, so he is absolutely 100% my boss, and I'm also going to say he still sits on a number of committees at the European Central Bank. So, fabrice, welcome to the show.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, Andrew, for this warm welcome.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's great to have you on the show, and we're doing a reverse panel this week as well. Last week, our guest co-host was James Cherry, and Fabrice is joining Christian and myself this week to interrogate Barnaby about the future, because you're moderating a panel at the GFF Summit this year, and the panel, of course, is on innovation and looking at what's possible, what's practical, and there's often a big difference between those things, and I want to start off by getting you to set that big picture for us. What are the big themes that are dominating? Securities lending, clearing, repo capital markets, markets, central bank operations uh, give us a sort of top five tech trends that we should be paying attention to as we go into 2025 yeah, no, look, thanks.

Speaker 3:

I mean, and I think, as you said, it's uh, it's always interesting to. I love the split between what's uh, what's possible and what's practical. I think in and we keep very much an eye on what's practical, I would say, and so for me, the top five that are nearing that zone of practicality in 2025, I'd say it's hard not to talk about digital assets, particularly in the context of collateral and repos, and we'll talk more about that. But I think there's just so much fantastic stuff going on in that space that we're really at a state where, you know, you've got 60% of financial institutions working on the kind of fixed income digital life cycle that it's this is. You know, this is an area that's really coming to the fore now as a brilliant manifestation of all the benefits we've been looking at for years Tokenized funds, you know, second big area, probably the second big area of digital assets overall, not just because they're good from a fund management perspective, but now because also they come into the whole securities finance collateral space. So there's this brilliant convergence going on there. But it's not obviously all about digital assets. You know there's I think there's there's a lot of kind of bricks and mortar stuff going on.

Speaker 3:

We've got clearing reform, um. You know, if you look at, obviously, us treasury, clearing um is probably going to be one of the biggest themes, I think, next year. And the the international overflow of that, is only really just beginning to be understood. Um and corporate actions. You know, the the theme that's been there for 30 years is still still a hot topic. You know, we're seeing automation rates actually decline in many markets. So what does that mean from a lending perspective, from a collateral perspective? Huge challenges. But I'd say probably the last one that's really, really, I think, in that zone of practicality is all the four or five letter abbreviations Dora, oscar, the work that's basically just absolutely dominating now, know, dominating now the short-term agenda in terms of must-dos, you know, resilience, chaos, you know, know your counterparty, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1:

And in the scheme of all of that, where do the sort of the big buzz topics like AI sit? Do they cut across everything? Is AI something? Because everyone's talking about that and yet it's not really quite delivering the sort of the commercial goods, especially in the sort of market infrastructure space, in the plumbing space, in that sort of world of very complex processes, it doesn't seem it's quite ready. And also blockchain too? I mean, where is our magical crypto magic wand, which Christian says I mustn't mention anymore, because it was basically all I talked about for the first couple of seasons of the show?

Speaker 3:

That's a great point, I mean, I think, for me, ai is just it's kind of it's like an ingredient in the of.

Speaker 3:

You know, I suppose asset servicing is a great example, but also trade surveillance, you know, even portfolio management. Actually it's AI is increasingly kind of being used as a piece of the puzzle. I think for me, it's just it's a bit different quantum, though, to what we're looking at in terms of ecosystem builds, when we're looking at, you know, tokenization of, of collateral, tokenization of funds, um, and things like that. So I think it's, it's there, but honestly, for me, I think, you know, in terms of the stuff that's going to rebuild the industry, I think tokenization is, is is much, much bigger. To your point about crypto side, you know there's no doubt, but basically what has been, 70 of industry work has been focused on digit, on tokenization this year, as opposed to kind of digital asset issuance. I think, with with a new administration in the states, we'll probably see a huge swing around to next year being a big crypto year, I'd say because there has been a softening or there's an anticipated softening of attitudes at the sec.

Speaker 1:

with the departure of Gary Gensler and potentially the appointment of someone who is more banking friendly, more crypto friendly, more deregulatory, should we expect an innovation boom on the FinTech side and the RegTech side coming out of the States in 2025?

Speaker 3:

Well, I think to your point, the, the key point, the key piece there really is coming out of the states, because I think, for me, if you look at the last few years, all our research points to the fact that the digital innovation has really been led from europe and from from asia, which we can expand on, but I think about 70 80 percent of of american institutions have had to run their digital asset projects offshore for the last few years, simply because, as you said, there's a lot of headwinds, a lot of pushback, and so you see glimmers of hope coming through from organizations that sit outside the SEC, like the asset management industry.

Speaker 3:

So, as I said, huge amount of fund tokenization, all that cool stuff from Blackrock, templeton, fidelity, all those great guys, but the banks haven't been able to get involved yet and I think, as you said, I think there's a very strong expectation in 2025, banks are going to be allowed to get their hands on on this stuff for real, um, and so therefore, you know that probably what has been a big gap across the atlantic will disappear, I think okay, now I'm going to hand over to Fabrice, who always takes the lead in putting the innovation agenda together, the GFF, and so Fabrice Tomenko, over to you.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, andrew. Maybe one question regarding what you just said, barney, around digital assets If we can zoom in a little bit there, because digital assets is quite a wide concept. Right, we have tokenization of existing securities, we have new issuance of securities using some digital processes and we have also, next to that, digital native assets on some of these DLT platforms. So where do we stand really with this? We've seen, I mean, in our world of Deutsche Börse Group, we see that we are moving forward the digital issuance. We have, I think, reached 100,000 new issuance on D7 platform, which is a lot and maybe not enough right to move, let's say, the industry forward. So I would be interested in your views around this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think you know. I think, for me, if you start at the issuance level, the digital asset issuance level, we reckon there's about $18 billion worth of natively digital assets issued thus far, really in the last five years. So we're including, as you said, some of the native digital assets and bonds that have been coming on to D7, but ultimately also in major markets like Hong Kong, the World Bank, eib, et cetera, et cetera. And so you know, for me, I think, 18 billion it's a bit like you say for the 100,000, you know it's a big number, but a small number at the same time.

Speaker 3:

I think the really interesting thing, though, is the challenge that we've kind of identified is that about half of that is completely immobile at the moment.

Speaker 3:

So, you know, as we essentially, as we're getting to the point where digital asset issuance, it's not that hard anymore. You can issue a bond, you can issue a commercial paper, you know any kind of thing. It's not really that complicated to issue it anymore. The biggest thing is getting it moving, and you know, and I think so, the fact that about a half to three quarters of those assets are now trapped is a real, real challenge, and I think for me, what's brilliant is that we're starting to see I think we're up to about four, five trillion dollars monthly of turnover in the um tokenized collateral repo space, um, which is just, I think, as I said earlier on, I think it's just a great example of actually what is starting to become possible in terms of mobilizing those assets. I don't necessarily see big secondary markets kind of activity playing out, but we are seeing assets being mobilized really effectively as collateral. So I think for me, whilst we're struggling, on the one hand, I think there's a huge amount of cause for optimism about what we're actually getting done.

Speaker 4:

But, as you said, big numbers but small numbers, a global context, but, you know, ramping up really fast yeah, I guess we need to start somewhere right, and and as you mentioned, uh, the fact that we are starting, uh, in different, let's say, platform to see collateral being mobilized is a good, let's say uh indication that a secondary market could be created at the back of that right To create the liquidity that is required and make this type of, let's say, assets more attractive.

Speaker 4:

Right, and I guess as well that the let's say, really the success will come from how easy it is to use, right, going forward, and how efficient also the process is as well. Right, and there is always the question is really the new type of assets, right? Or processes around the assets, is it more efficient than the traditional one? And I think this is what the people are trying to experiment in different areas of mobilization of collateral, or what we have seen also with the ECB trios, with creating of some repo transaction using token on one side, cash, cbdc on the other side, just to test the limit of this and then come to a conclusion.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely no, and I think you know, again, it comes back to possible versus practical, you, no, and I think I think you know, again, it comes back to possible versus practical. You know, and I think for me, what the ECB trials have done is just they really, really, I think, push to the fore so many of these kind of key considerations because ultimately, you know, the biggest challenges that we face in really scaling this stuff is ultimately one is is how do you plug it in to legacy technologies and legacy infrastructure? As you already said, I've always remembered a great example somebody said was if you're dealing with a tokenized euro, when you put it into a 30-year-old cash management system, is that EUR or is it something else? I just think it's such a great kind of short description, essentially, of the challenges you face, because it's mostly like a euro, but it's not a euro, you know, and I think, as you said, the ECB trials have done a great job in helping to advance that.

Speaker 3:

But the other big point on the whole of practicality is it's humans. You know it's most of the challenges we see in terms of deploying, you know, and really scaling this stuff. It's it's legal frameworks, it's people understanding the business case. It's risk and compliance people really being brought in early enough in the project. So you know, honestly, one of the biggest takeaways, I think, of all the experimentation that's been going on recently is this novel technology.

Speaker 1:

That's the challenge, it's us and I suppose a follow-up question then to that is for everyone listening to. This regulation has become that huge cost burden, that back office burden. It's that headache We've got. You know, we've just had a mere, obviously in the derivative space, a mere refit's gone through. It's been a massive change. It's caused a lot of disruption. There's rewrites happening for MIFID. There's potentially sftr again, which I know is something you're something of an expert on there, barnaby. Uh, we've got changes coming. You've mentioned cftc. That it seems to be wave after wave. Plus, there's different regional sets of regulations that are affecting the securities markets and we always think about automation technology as being the way to solve those issues posting collateral automatically for your umr, uh, phase six obligations or whatever it might be. Is that happening yet, or is it just too much of a compliance issue and you've got to have a human hand on that tiller to make sure that your ship doesn't go off course?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think if you look at what the UCB DLT trials have shown us I mean the biggest DLT live experiment on earth you know, thus far, 70 different organizations participating, 40 different usage cases.

Speaker 3:

You know, I think for me what's been really fascinating in many of the cases that have been looked at is the excitement about how ready existing frameworks are for tokenization.

Speaker 3:

And I say tokenization not necessarily the digital issuance, but if you look at a lot of the work around margining, a lot of the work around the interest rate swaps, intraday repos, if you actually speak to the organizations that have been involved in that, they've been, I think, really taken aback by how well the tokenization model fits in with, as you said, with Aenear, with a lot of the existing frameworks, contractual frameworks that exist, question marks over SFTR and minor details, but ultimately, for me, the gap between, again, possible and practical. I think the UCB DLT trials have really shown up that actually in this space, especially the collateral margining space, the viability is really really, really high and actually that, therefore, we can expect 2025 to really be the year when we kick in $4 trillion as a step. At the moment, you know we should be seeing multiples of that now and I find you know, the more that we speak to bankers about the value of tokenized collateral especially, the more people are kind of just saying, yeah, okay, this is the one that we really got to get behind now.

Speaker 4:

I totally agree with what Barney said regarding, let's say, the good conclusion out of the CB trials as an example. But for me, and based on some experience that we have on some, let's say, use case around collateral, I think technology is there, right. There is no discussion around that Now. You know they have multiple DLT, multiple language system, so we can say that technology is there. From a regulatory standpoint, the framework is also there, right. As you pointed out, barney, the clear definition about what is a digital asset, what is a tokenized asset, what is an asset-backed digital asset is also clarified. But I will say I will, let's say, attempt a little bit the excitation around what we could see in 2025, because a lot of those banks right, or actors who participate in these arbitraries are there to, let's say, test the order to a certain extent, but there are still some limitations.

Speaker 4:

When we are talking about tokenization of existing securities, this means that you can move ownership of the token on a platform quite efficiently, but everything that remains behind the security in itself still exists. So we still are relying on legacy system standard way of holding the securities on behalf of someone else via network spaghetti that is required and obviously we are trying to simplify this as much as possible. This is what we are doing in the context of HQRX, for example. We are trying to achieve or at least remove friction of collateral fragmentation by making easier the settlement.

Speaker 4:

There is one thing that we often forget is all the impact of asset servicing tax, regulation or rules right? Because we are not. It's not because we are tokenizing the asset that we are getting rid of all those issues right, and this remain, as today, in the traditional environment, an impediment to collateral mobility. Right and I like the point four that you mentioned, barney, in your list is corporate action automation right, and which is basically one aspect of the issue. You have also tax, for example, at the new level to make it simpler, and this is, I think, a problem that potentially the technology can help to solve, but not only. This is most probably one of the next regulatory topics that people like or industry forum, like the ECB or others, need to tackle.

Speaker 1:

Well, on the subject of those broader questions about liquidity, we do have to start looking at public policy. Christian, you're our central bank expert, so I'm going to hand over to you for this one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you, Andrew. Well, in Europe and in US there's a new administration coming. So how is the view of Barnaby on public sector involvement? Us is actually the public sector tends to be more supportive. They are less directly intervening in market operations. In the European Union, the public sector is really very actively involved in shaping market regulation and promoting specific innovation agendas. And now we always talked about capital market union. Now we talk about the savings and investment plan. So I know that we don't yet know how this new administration in the US are going to play it out, but we can see from the appointments that the newly elected president has done that there will be a disruption coming, coming.

Speaker 3:

So regulation in Europe versus regulation in the US, and how is Europe going to tackle that challenge? The benefits, I suppose, of sitting outside of Europe and looking in geographically is that I actually I think it's very easy to be very negative on what Europe's actually achieved. I think in this space, I think if you look over the last few years, europe's actually achieved. I think in this space, I think if you look over the last few years, basically you have had obviously some very, very big support from top down. Eib is still one of the biggest bond issuers in terms of digital issuance so far. D7 is a live, commercially viable platform. You've had the ECB DLT trials as I said, biggest, biggest yet and ultimately you've got probably one of the few really commercially viable booking centers for DLT and digital assets in Luxembourg, not to mention all the innovation work that's coming out of the UK kind of when people get behind things in Europe, there is a strong ability to deliver and I think it's easy to look past that.

Speaker 3:

But I think there's been a huge amount of progress in the last few years in terms of what that's left Europe with. You know. Is it going to carry on? I think for me that there's two very interesting dynamics. I think one is, as you said, the capital market union. You know, if you look at the messaging coming out of Paris-Brussels at the moment, there is absolutely no ambiguity in the fact that capital market union and the acceleration and progression of that is absolutely square and center of the agenda and that we really, really need to make that happen. So I think for me there's an enormous amount of frucous that now we just need to live up to the chat in Europe, but it needs to happen.

Speaker 2:

There is of course, the geopolitical necessity of the integration of the capital markets union in Europe. I think that goes without saying. But when we come back to our industry, I think securities lending, repo and collateral management I think margins are quite. It's a low margin business, as you know, and new regulation often increases obviously also the cost from a compliance point of view. You also have operational disruption to some extent, so ie inefficiencies, and again I mean European Union is less attractive from that point of view, and so don't you think there will be an outflow of capital and talent from Europe to the US.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a really good question. I don't think it's a given yet. I think you know, personally, I feel like it's still to play. I mean, as you said, it's very, very likely that we'll see some very quick action in the States in kind of early 2025. Quite what that means in terms of, as you said, talent outflow and liquidity outflow. I mean I'd still say there's a lot of, there's a lot in Europe to be lost. It's still up to Europe to lose it, kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

Okay, now, at that point, I've got to dive in because we're drawing the show. We have to draw our threads to the close. Sadly, we're out of time, but if you want to hear more of this with other leaders and experts in the field, make sure you come to the GFFFF Summit, if you've got your ticket and if not, don't worry. There will be a recording from there where we will be catching up with our guests and other attendees there, and I'll make sure that I grab Barnaby and find out exactly how this goes. But just for a little quick preview there, christian Fabrice, I'm going to start with you two and then come to Barnaby and say we love our crystal ball questions, obviously on this show. So what is your crystal ball prediction for innovation that's going to land in 2025?

Speaker 2:

Christian innovation. From a point of view of technology, I'm I'm not the right person to to answer that, but I think in terms of innovation from the central bank policy side, I think what we are in for is central banks reduce their balance sheet over the next year, so that's very clear the fed bank of england and the bank of japan and and the european central bank, of course. I think we are entering into a period where money is going to come back into the money markets and is not going to be exclusively provided by central banks, so that will spill over into our platforms and so we can see that, which is a good thing for a market infrastructure provider that provides platforms where banks can connect and our products are secure. So I think collateral is in our world securities. And now, in terms of innovation, here one has to follow closely how the central banks will actually tailor their eligibility criteria, because that's really key.

Speaker 2:

In Europe and in the Eurozone, banks are actually transforming non-HQLA into HQLA by going to the central bank. So they post less good quality collateral, they get reserves and they purchase good quality collateral, which then they keep on their balance sheet. So this is a figure of 1.6 trillion, which was actually observed over two years, so it is a very strong trend. Finally, the point I made earlier we see a lot of traction coming into the cash side of the payments. There is innovation on our side with automatic Forex transactions. We will automate Forex transactions. We will automate forex transactions and that a couple to settlement transactions, but we will also offer standard instructions for cash payments and out of the clear stream account at the end of the business day.

Speaker 4:

and so these are the things that I I can say I can keep from my point of view, If we are purely talking about innovation, I think 2025 will be an important year for materializing all those use cases that we have seen. Anything now right, Using new technology, collateral tokenization, mobilization, technology, collateral tokenization, mobilization 2025 will be the year of moving from a use case to production and industrialization of the processes within the different firms. Right, Moving from the digital innovation teams to the production team, which will make the usage of those models, let's say, more credible in the market. So I think this is a key turning point for those use cases and next to that, we discussed earlier AI being the one ingredient, one piece of the puzzle. But I think they will play an important role to develop new product, and this is maybe something that will be a little bit more obvious to some of the users of our services. And I will ask you to stay tuned for the next GFF Summit, because we will be developing cool stuff that we'll be delivering in 2025.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's it. So, Barnaby, we've got Christian's predictions, we've got Fabrice and cool stuff coming. What have you got on your crystal ball there? What do you think is going to be the big game changer that arrives in 2025?

Speaker 3:

US Central Treasury clear. I think that is going to create such a. We're only just getting started on that, but I think it's going to dominate the agenda next year. I think it's going to create a lot of pressures and hopefully drive a lot of great innovation. If you think about the pressure it's going to create on collateral, on margin and everything it's going to create, you know, hopefully some very positive pressures, but it's going to be quite short fuse and so obviously you know we're, as an industry, just coming out of the T1 transition. You know, I think your central treasury clearing is going to look a bit like that next year and it's going to be a big, big year.

Speaker 1:

That's so cool because Christian said I can't talk about the clearing mandatory clearing of US treasuries anymore and you did it for me. I promised you, christian, we didn't arrange that in advance. That's just the way it shakes out sometimes. Listen on that fantastic note, I think that all that really remains for us to do is to give a huge GFF podcast. Thank you to our very, very special guest this week, barnaby Nelson, the CEO of the Innovation Exchange. Barnaby, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3:

Brilliant. Thank you very much for having me. It's been fantastic.

Speaker 1:

It's been great having you and, of course, joined by our extra special co-host for this episode, the CEO of Clistium International, a man who's putting together the innovation agenda for the GFF Summit. Fabrice, thank you very much.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, andrew. Thank you, it's always a pleasure for me to join you and Christian on this podcast, so looking forward to the GFF Summit and the podcast of next year.

Speaker 1:

There is one person without whom there could be no GFF podcast my co-host and very much the brains of the outfit. I'm going to say now, if you've ever wondered, uh, who does all the clever stuff? It's it, it's christian. Now I've admitted it christian. Uh, another great year of podcasting, well done well, I'm I'm just, uh, the servant.

Speaker 2:

You're the master, so always a pleasure to be on the show with you. I learn a lot, but of course, uh, it's the two that make the podcast a success. So I'm very happy that we have achieved another successful year of podcasting, and I'm looking forward to welcome you in Luxembourg, as you're going to be my co-moderator of the Central Bank Forum, which is the closing session at the GFM Summit in January, and we're also happy to meet Barnaby in person. We're all going to meet up in a couple of weeks. It's great.

Speaker 1:

And there will be a special live show that I'll be recording with Christian as we roam around the lovely venue there the Expo in Luxembourg to see who we can catch and hopefully get some scoops of what's coming up in 2025.

Speaker 1:

And, in the meantime, from everybody here in the virtual studio, from everyone here at Clearstream and the GFF podcast, from myself, from Christian, from our special guests, join us on LinkedIn that's linkedincom slash company, slash Clearstream, where you can catch up with Barnaby and with Fabrice and with Christian, with Barnaby and with Fabrice and with Christian everyone who's been a guest on the show this year and you can do some networking and keep up with all the great developments that are happening with D7 and all the other things that Deutsche Bullse are doing in the digital space. And on that note, for me it's a happy Christmas if that's your tradition and if not, have a holiday and a happy one. And if you don't even get the holiday, I hope your day in the office is filled with a little bit of office fun. Make sure you pull a cracker and put on a silly hat at least. Well, I would just say I'm finishing my work.

Speaker 4:

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone.

Speaker 1:

Barnaby, you're in Hong Kong right now. I know you are a busy man and globetrotting. Maybe you could give us a happy new year to round us off.

Speaker 3:

Uh in, uh, mandarin I'm here, fat joy, but that's for end of january, so we'll save that for early next year okay, we'll save it for early next year.

Speaker 1:

Listen. Thank you for listening. Uh, we'll be back in 2025 and until then, have a good one. Bye, bye-bye, bye-bye. And special guests expressing their personal opinions, not the opinions of Clearstream as an organization. There's no representation made as to the accuracy or completeness of information in this podcast, nor should it be taken as legal, tax or other professional advice. See you next month.